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#31
20-07-2009, 04:58 AM
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Effie - As far as I know, there is only one 'unforgiveable sin' and that is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit which basically means that if you've been enlightened by the Holy Spirit and you turn Your back on Him and deny Him. To add though to what you said, it's not just Christians who are forgiven by God. Any individual who seeks God's forgiveness genuinely is forgiven. And while that upsets a lot of people because it means that pedophiles and murderers are forgiven too, we have to remember that we are thinking from a human mindset. Can we ever grasp why God does things? Heidi - I think not being able to forgive is a very 'human' thing, it doesn't make you 'unchristian' as such, but it's probably something that is worth working on and you could find a lot of healing from. I think we have to keep in mind that forgiving someone doesn't mean you are required to agree or accept what they did as being good, it doesn't mean that you have to forget or that you are dishonouring your brothers memory. zeeeb - Noone wants to believe that they will go to hell. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say "I'm going to go to hell" (Unless in a joking manner) Noone likes the idea of going there (and who would, really) and I believe that that's the way it's meant to be. Would I want to spend the rest of my life burning in hell with Satan? No, so I choose to live the way God wants me too, I choose Him over Satan. It's not about being a good person, it's about the state of your heart. It's about humbling yourself and allowing God to take control. So many people say Christians use God as a crutch, or that they're scared. My question for those people, is what am I losing out by believing in God? What am I losing out in my life by living an honest, good life. (Which is what you should be living if you are claiming to be a Christian). If I'm wrong, I lose absolutely nothing but if I'm right (which I totally believe that God is real) then I gain more than everything. For the people who are on their deathbed and have lived a bad life and ask for forgiveness, well, asking for forgiveness isn't actually very easy. Ask anyone who has ever had to do that before. I don't think people just do it to get a ticket to heaven. Often it's the time when people deny God even more vehemently. I think I'm done now lol
__________________ Kelly ~ 29 Dave ~ 30 Benl ~ 30/10/2002 Jess ~ 15/06/2005 Sam ~ 08/12/2008  |
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#32
20-07-2009, 10:32 AM
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on another note forgiveness is not something that a murderer ever expects to receive from a person whom they have hurt. from a family they have destroyed. imagine how taken aback they would be if you where to say, you know what, i forgive you. what you did was not okay, what you did was horrible, i will miss my brother until my dying day, but i forgive you and i am free of you now. i wonder if they would go away thinking "what is it about that person that made them Able to forgive me after what i did to them" maybe, just maybe.. that could be what makes them seek after Lord Jesus, in looking to find what was the driving force and strength behind such a noble act. just my thoughts i don't know if any of this has helped you.... Forgiveness for deep hurts is something i have struggled with and overcome in my life with God's help... it was a long and painful journey and was exhausting and hard... but now i feel free from the negative feelings that tied me down and although the memories still hurt, and what happened is never going to be okay, i am free to move on without having future relationships tainted by what has happened in the past. I pray you will find the solution that works for you and i pray God will give you His strength and His peace and His healing.
__________________  Has been so blessed with friends like angels with candles in the dark. Just when you think there is no hope, there they are; like God's own loving hands here on earth helping along the way. |
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#33
20-07-2009, 11:08 AM
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Heya Ladies! Wow! I don't think anyone could have put the truth better. How awesome is God's grace (An un-deserved mercy) that we too can be forgiven? That is what gives me hope. My personal story, Rahrah, is that I too have struggled with the whole forgiveness thing. But I could never put into words why I wanted to actually forgive so much as what Amielou just said. I was molested by our neighbours' sons from Kindergarten to year 3. My mum thought I was just being anti-social when I didn't want to go and "play" with our 15 and 17 year old next door neighbours. Apart from the glut of emotional baggage that sort of thing brings with it (And GOD has been the only one to help me through my own issues and has sent me an AMAZING husband to help me continue this everyday!), I also needed God's help to forgive these guys. It wasn't because I really deep down liked them. Love is a word I also say that I don't have for these guys (except as the type for mankind... but even then it is stretching it most times!). But I found that hating, grudging and even the energy involved in outlinning how much I despised these guys was too much of my time and too much of my energy that could otherwise be devoted to other things... like God. So he gave me the energy and the understanding to let go. And how free-ing it is! I still don't like those guys. I still avoid their house when I go back to my home town(Population 10 000 max). But I don't want them to rule my life. They may have driven my family out of town (Small town- they side with the people who have lived there the longest when all comes to light), they may have had me in nightmares for ages and as a teen with some MAJOR self image issues... BUT I have the upperhand. They mean nothing to me. They have no power over me and God triumphs through it all. He has re-empowered me to fear NOTHING. What a blessing it is to know as well that God judges JUSTLY. He doesn't use what we would term as "fair" or ANY human logic. If he did he would say they got their just deserts when they got their suspended good behaviour bond (But no criminal record BTW!). If those guys DON'T repent, God will judge them on what they have done and not been repentant for. It is HIS to avenge. If they DO repent, and God forgives them (As he would if they did ACTUALLY repent) Hallelujah! That means that when I repent I am forgiven also. I spose my major biff with this has been that if they did repent that means I would have to spend eternity with them, imagining that it was all fake and that they really hadn't changed. But the reality is that in accepting Christ and the forgiveness he allows us to have when we repent, we are being prepared for perfection. He will change our hearts and minds and renew our spirit. And what is better is that we won't be focused on those around us when we get to heaven. Who cares about them when Jesus, the one that washes away ALL pain and mourning, will be there ready to care and cater for us while we just get to be in one MASSIVE worship "orgy" (For want of a better word!!! Session really didn't hit it!). No more struggle, no more strife. Justice will be served and grace poured out on those who have sought forgiveness! Yipppeee! I know that in the day-to-day it might not be as bright and shiny as this (More like Sh*te and Briny!) but this is more what we have to look forward to. It does say in the bible "Forgive as you have been forgiven" but God knows that it took his help for us to be forgiven and DAILY it will take his help to forgive. As tempting as it is on bad days to snatch back any forgiveness that you have extended... remember- God doesn't forgive that way and when we have given him a particularly "trying" day would we want our forgiveness pulled out from under us? Hope that this has been more helpful than a hinderence. I have never had to put it into words before!
__________________ "Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal..." -Henry Ford Me ~ Kirsty ~ 24 DH ~ Spud ~ 27 DB ~ The Potato Gem ~ EDD 29/11/09 |
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#34
20-07-2009, 01:15 PM
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i just wanted to say quickly rahrah etc i'm so sorry for your loss and what you've been through, i think i would find it so hard to forgive in that situation too. i've never had anything that traumatic happen to me in my life i guess so can't relate, but if forgiveness is a struggle/interest for you there are some awesome biographies out there at Christian bookstores - e.g. corrie ten boom, the heavenly man, a few from the Rwandan genocide, of people who have lost loved ones through horrible brutality or been tortured themselves and still manage to forgive. there was also one i forget the name, of an american man whose son killed the man's wife and other son (all within the family) - not sure if there was mental illness or anything with that story but it looked pretty powerful.
__________________ Me (26) & DH (31) our now not so little cherub Isaac James 31/07/08 our little pink blessing Emilyn Rose 11/11/09 |
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#35
20-07-2009, 01:16 PM
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WOW, is all I can say, your replies have had me in tears... thank you so much for your heart felt responses. You are truly wonderful people. I can see it clearer now, I know I have to work on this and hopefully one day I will be able to forgive. I will look out for those books next time I'm at Koorong, if anyone has any other suggestions that would be great. Thanks again xx
__________________ Heidi Matt Jack 8 Kiara 6 Harrison 2 Jordan 9 months Whoopsy Baby's Ticker: http://tickers.baby-gaga.com/p/dev170pr___.png  |
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#36
20-07-2009, 04:25 PM
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uptheduff... what an amazing and encouraging post, thank you for sharing that incredibly personal story with us... God bless you and Praise Him for the healing He has brought about in your life!! rahrah; i am so glad that we have been able to encourage and uplift you in this way, my prayers are with you and God bless you! Thankyou for being open and honest enough with yourself, with god and with us, your Christian friends to open up about this, what is obviously a very painful thing for you. Lord, cover this dear lady with your love, your grace, your peace and your comfort. Give her strength and healing in these feelings and in this situation. Amen. **may i just say how wonderful it has been that this thread is a place where we can share openly and honestly and encourage one another like this...-claps for everyone-**
__________________ Has been so blessed with friends like angels with candles in the dark. Just when you think there is no hope, there they are; like God's own loving hands here on earth helping along the way. |
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#37
21-07-2009, 12:07 PM
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UTD - I guess I have a different perspective on things for a few reasons... like you, I was abused for a number of years by a family member... this same person has gone on to become a respected member of the church, preaching to others about forgiveness and all the things posters have mentioned. Never in 20 yrs has the subject been raised to me by him. For the entire 8 yrs it went on he never questioned whether what he was doing was 'ok'. I live with how I feel about it, I have forgiven myself, I even see some positives in my personality as a result of living through this experience. I wouldnt and couldnt forgive him unless he actually acknowledges it and asks for that forgiveness, and even though that is a human reaction it is a reaction that I do not question. As a result I will always question a church that can and does hold peadophiles in high esteem, and will always wonder why church followers look up to these people without questioning their history. So I guess while he may have, and probably has, repented to God, the fact that he lives his life held in esteem by the church will always make me doubt putting my faith in a God that can accept someones repentence. None of this means I do not have a faith, I truly believe there is more to life than what we see here on earth, but I do frequently question the morals of the church |
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#38
21-07-2009, 12:49 PM
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I know that I chopped bits out, but for those who are starting reading here, please see Effie's post above. I just want to address these few things in particular. Effie, OMIGOD! I know how you feel WRT having this issue not brought up and dealt with openly. But personally, I had it dragged out of me eventually and it was the only way I could deal with it. God will bring all things to light eventually and while someone making you tell what happened may not be helpful for you, it made sure that my abusers had their acts brought to light... even if here on earth they didn't see much "justice". Let me just make it CLEAR that the church (ANY DENOMINATION) does not condone paedophilic acts as a part of it's culture or anywhere in it's ranks. It is a despicable, disgusting thing and as such is HIGH on the list of priorities for those dealing with child protection in the church. If it is then it is NOT a church and God's spirit is NOT there. He says that in the bible. That if a church pulls away from what he wants in them, he will remove his spirit. That church will die and where it still stands will be just lies and deception parading to tell the truth. In your case, from what you have outlined (I have my Child Protection hat on here. I have worked in this a little bit and have knowledge on the NSW system and WA systems inparticular), in ANY church where this occured, if ANYONE had ANY inclination that there was dodgy dealings, this person should have been removed from ministry and authority until such a time that it could be established through INDEPENDENT means (ie; Police, DOCS, courts, etc) that they were not guilty. Unfortunatly for them, with child protection cases, they are guilty until prooven innocent (And then some). If it has not been brought to the church's attention that this has occured then how can the blame rest with them? I can guarantee that if I had not said anything about my neighbours that they would have gone on to do the same to my little sister and the little girl that moved in next door to them shortly after this all came to light. Bringing it to light is the only way to stop it in it's tracks. Now, I am NOT saying that the church as a WHOLE is infalliable at this point. There is a clear history of cases where this has been reported and nothing has been done. If this is the case with you Effie, I am SO SO SO Sorry that you have had to go through this, ontop of everything else. It just goes to show that sinfulness exists in the hearts of ALL men (mankind I should point out, not just the male sex). But the responsibility does lie with the victim to a point. I told my mum and then it felt like the whole world knew, because she did so much to go to so many different people in different departments of health, DOCS, etc to make sure that something was done. If no one tells, how can anyone EVER know what is going on? This isn't to point the finger at victims. NOT AT ALL. It does not equate to it being their fault, but simply that if they want something done about it, then they have to say something. Saying something means that these people CAN NOT be held in high esteem by the church. To be honest, I doubt whether the other members of the eldership at the church in question would be suprised if this was brought to light. 1 in 4 Ministers fall into sexual and adulterous sin. Who knows what the other 3 aren't saying! There are CLEAR guidelines on how these things are meant to be dealt with and churches need to have a focus on being ABOVE REPROACH rather than either trying to hide it under the carpet or explain it away. The people that do it are to be removed IMMEDIATLY from contact with the victims (and other potential victims, esp if it involves kids) and they are to have NO authority in the church until it is resolved. Here are some bible verses that back up the stance that the church SHOULD be taking: 1 Thess 4: 1-8 "Finally then, brothers and sisters, we ask you and urge you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received instruction from us about how you must live and please God (as you are in fact living) that you do so more and more. For you know what commands we gave you through the Lord Jesus. For this is God’s will: that you become holy, that you keep away from sexual immorality, that each of you know how to possess his own body in holiness and honor, not in lustful passion like the Gentiles who do not know God. In this matter no one should violate the rights of his brother or take advantage of him, because the Lord is the avenger in all these cases, as we also told you earlier and warned you solemnly. For God did not call us to impurity but in holiness. Consequently the one who rejects this is not rejecting human authority but God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you. " BEFORE this Paul wrote to notoriously sexually immoral (and VERY accepting) church in Corinth: 1 Corinthians 5 Expel the Immoral Brother! 1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature[a] may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. 6Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? 7Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth. 9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. 12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you." I think that last passage speak PRETTY clearly about what SHOULD be done when something like this is brought to light, but a site that works through this in details (I have had a quick glance and it looks pretty ok- truthfullness wise): 1 Corinthians 5 - Confronting Immorality in the Church Sorry this is really long but I think that this was one of those things that couldn't be left un-said. This is TOTALLY unacceptable Effie, please don't EVER think that it is. If you need any help approaching doing something like bringing this to light, PM me. I know just what to do to get you started and can support the whole way. Godbless Kirsty
__________________ "Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal..." -Henry Ford Me ~ Kirsty ~ 24 DH ~ Spud ~ 27 DB ~ The Potato Gem ~ EDD 29/11/09 Last edited by uptheduff2009; 21-07-2009 at 12:58 PM. |
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#39
21-07-2009, 01:32 PM
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Kirsty - Couldn't have said it better. I agree 100%. There have been some horrible sins commited by Christians in the past and it often takes many years for them to come to light. I pray and hope that the current leaders have not allowed their immorality to overcome them like their ancestors. I pray that the next generation never have to deal with sufferings the past generations have had. I think it's better now, it's far harder to enter the priesthood (many years studying, even psych tests) and I believe there isn't the same secrecy going on with cover ups. Guilty parties are punished within the realms of the law, not just confessing their sins and that's it. But there are still so many cases coming to light from decades ago unfortunately and it will take a long time to repair the damage these indivuals have caused. It was the individual fault of those people involved, not the church as a whole. Every man is flawed and no one is better than the other. However I have a hard time not judging pedophiles and rapists.
__________________ Me 25 DH 26 Nikolas (the cheeky monkey)  15/04/07 (VB 35 weeks, 2.36kg, HELLP & PE) diagnosed with autismNadia (the smiley little lady)  21/08/08 (emergency c/s 33 weeks, 1.66kg, HELLP & Eclampsia)#3 due 14 Feb 2010 (exp Dec onwards) Avatar - DD 11 months |
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#40
21-07-2009, 02:12 PM
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I think I still stand by my comments made earlier in the thread about what the grounds for us forgiving someone else are AND why this is really beneficial to us as people. I can't tell Effie or anyone else with their own story how to do this. I can only say why it would be worth it. If you have faith, you stand forgiven- I am not going to tell anyone that gets taken away from them when they choose not to forgive. But I know, and a few of you other ladies have mentioned, personally- the relief and gains that come from doing it. It is letting go, growing and moving on! It is saying YOU HAVE NO POWER OVER ME. And GOD will deal with you. YOU are no longer MY problem. Kirst
__________________ "Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal..." -Henry Ford Me ~ Kirsty ~ 24 DH ~ Spud ~ 27 DB ~ The Potato Gem ~ EDD 29/11/09 |
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