Christianity

[uptheduff2009]

Is there a black and white perception portrayed in my last post? I would say yeah... there was some intention in the words that I chose. If there is a God and he says "this is what cuts it and this doesn't" then I would hope that that would be pretty damn clear to me when trying to either meet that or ignore it totally.
If it wasn't clear, why on earth would anyone bother following it? It would make this God distant, un-realistic in his expectations and not actually interested in whether we "get in" or not. What would be the point to all that then? Even if you thought God was dumb SURELY you wouldn't think him completley deranged as that? That is like shifting the goal-posts mid-way through a game!

As for needing an "update" in ideas... again, I think this is reffering to the stuff that is made by men to meet their needs and wants and not actually of God. Where in the bible does it say not to use contraception? Similarly where does it say that God will leave the deeds of those who do terrible things, such as molestation, un-punished???
God's ideas boil down to 2 major things.
1. Love God with all you've got
2. Love your neighbour...

If you are doing those things then you won't be screwing around on your partner because you will love them too much and love God too much to want to mess up your life. Similarly you wouldn't do things that would likewise harm others directly or indirectly. However, this isn't what you will be judged on.

Being a good person is great, don't get me wrong. But even George Bush is a "Nice person" so is Bill Clinton and even the Itallian Prime Minister (Who by the way, allows a political party called the "Paedophile party" to exist within his government!). But guess what, those guys have done some pretty bad things in their time. If they were relying on the good things they do to get into heaven, do you think they would really cut it? Do you think ANY of us would really cut it? Basically a nice person doesn't make it if the other 0.0005% of the time you want to throtte your DH/DS/DD/MIL, etc. We all fall short.

BUT- the idea with this black and white view of Christianity is to show us that we are in a hole and there is only 1 way out. Jesus is that. Provided by God in one simple man-sized package who, once heaped with all the crap that we have and will ever do, went to a cross and was murdered in our place so we wouldn't have to go to hell. Not because we were basically nice people, but because we soooooo weren't.
Believe that and THAT is your only ticket in. Believe and accept that THAT is what gives you forgiveness, not basically being a "good" person (because what is "Good" except for God!?) and you are "IN" like Flynn. Surely that is easier anyways than jumping through hoops or being stuck in feeling guilty when we realise we really aren't "Good enough".

This isn't meant to be having a go at anyone personally, or what they choose to believe. But as someone who has been on both sides of the fence and back again, it defines and tells the truth that I felt some previous posts lacked. As this is meant to be a topic about defining what Christianity really is I couldn't really let it go without being said.
It's not just my opinion, it is what the bible says. I havn't included 1 thing that has been said and set by man (Unless that is what you believe the bible is. I believe it is all God talking 100%). That way I avoid "Grey" areas and the hurdles that for centuries people have been inventing for themselves. I just aim to make it as clear and true a depiction as I can. I think there are enough people out there muddying the waters as it is.

[amielou]

****claps for uptheduff****

AMEN!!

[eire]

Originally Posted by zeeeb

i was speaking to a catholic priest (the one who has been in DP's life since he was born) and i was having a discussion about the fact that the catholic faith needs to update it's ways a bit, because alot of it is just not applicable to now. which doesn't mean everything we all do now is wrong, it just means the church has to move with the times about issues like contraception and update itself to be relevant to todays society. he didn't disagree with me.

zeeb they are never going to change the doctrine on contraception however it is defined by the church and priests as being a matter of moral conscience which means you aren't going to hell if you don't follow it, you just have to be true to the conviction you have on it.

[Duedrop]

Originally Posted by amielou

****claps for uptheduff****

AMEN!!

What she said!

[meggymoo]

Nicely put, Uptheduff

Heres my two cents - I don't often mix 'faith' and 'forum' but seeing as we are sharing ... Some facts about me, if you will.

1. I'm not a 'bad person' as such, but I do and say and think some pretty crap stuff, on a more regular basis than I'd like to admit. Sometimes deliberately. I can be naughty, and somewhat unrepentant at times

2. I HATE the thought of anyone going to hell, and I struggle all the time with the idea of a God that could let people go there, let alone 'send' them there. I am forever trying to think of a cosmic loophole for people who I worry, from my limited perspective, might end up there. I stress 'limited perspective' - I don't claim to know everything about how God rules the universe.

3. I also struggle with the idea that God could allow his own son to die, for anyone else, let alone a murderer or pedophile etc. I can hardly breathe when I think of making the same sacrifice. If that's the standard, I'm never gonna get there. It is so unfair, and seems nonsensical.

4. I have 'non-Christian' friends and 'Christian' ones, people of all kinds of beleifs and backgrounds, and I disagree wholeheartly with all of them on a whole range of topics. I cry for them when things suck, and I celebrate with em when life is good and I mostly when we talk about God I say 'I dunno' or 'I hope I'm on the right track', or 'whaddyou reckon?' alot. I don't beleive that such 'tolerance' *roll eyes* entitles me to sainthood, or even a pat on the back. It's just grace, everyone needs it and most people use it in relationships everyday.

I'm a Christian. I still have issues - with my own faith! God forbid - and I still bugger it up all the time. I have attitude problems. I forget to pray. I have my feelings of doubt about whether God really is in control. I wonder at times if God is real. I challenge anyone to tell me that means I'm not a 'proper' Christian. LOL - most Christians I know are very improper!

I feel that the concept of 'Christian' is used in a substantial number of contexts. Is it a lifestyle choice? A set of rules? An 'identity' that you take on because your own identity isn't enough? Is it something you devote 10% of your life to? 20%? 50%? I am particularly perplexed at the concept of a 'Christian' School, or a 'Christian' political party. How can a school be Christian, if it isn't a soul? (P.S. I work in a 'Christian' School and had that been all I know of Christianity, it's enough to turn me off for life). I guess in these contexts, it's referring to Christianity as an 'ethos' or a 'moral standard' or a 'prescribed beleif'. So many definitions for one word is bound to lead to hurt, confusion and tension.

To me personally: the thing that makes you a Christian is having a relationship with Christ. And nobody else can ever tell you whether thats the case or not. Debate is good - makes you think. But you can't get the answer from someone else.

Okay, going back to my forum friendly format now! Megs xx

[uptheduff2009]

Bravo MeggyMoo! That took some guts!
I know everyone struggles with the same things you just wrote about but sometimes you need to know that it won't all make sense 100% of the time because we forget things like Grace.
Isn't it Good News that we can feel that way and STILL know that we'll be ok in the end? That God still cares for us, has a plan and guarantees our salvation?
Thank God it is...

[Effie]

I have a question... I've probably asked it before but havent ever really had a full answer or understood why it would be the case...

Can a born again Christian/any Christian be forgiven for anything? Just because someone asks for forgiveness does that mean that they have truly repented? Who should they repent to? Is it really 'ok' for God to forgive that person if they havent repented to the person they sinned against?

This is for me what significantly affects my belief in Christianity. That someone who sins against me and does not treat me with love can seek and be given forgiveness for something that I consider unforgivable, and hence that person can go to heaven and even be held in esteem by other Christians.

How does someone as a Christian reconcile their feelings about other Christians who have done despicable acts? Do you consider them to have a 'clean slate' when they ask for forgiveness?

[uptheduff2009]

I know.. it seems I do no work and am here constantly... but why lie? I'll have a crack at this, but it doesn't mean it is 100% right or what I'd actually like to say! It is just what I can write right now...

Originally Posted by Effie

Can a born again Christian/any Christian be forgiven for anything? Just because someone asks for forgiveness does that mean that they have truly repented? Who should they repent to? Is it really 'ok' for God to forgive that person if they havent repented to the person they sinned against?

I spose the meaning of repentance needs a bit of clarrification for anyone who doesn't know (Just for anyone who comes across this thread in the future). It means to be sorry for what you have done and to turn away from doing it. Do a 180 and go in the opposite direction to it. If someone has truley done that I would expect if it was something done against you personally, they would show you they were sorry as well(Else what is the point?). If not, it is for God to sort out and I am quite happy to leave it in his capable hands to sort out... even if that means waiting till judgement day.

I know it is "OK" for God to do that because he has one nature and that NEVER changes. That is loving and forgiving. Because I belong to his flock doesn't mean that I am excempt from having to ask for forgiveness everytime I stuff up. Isn't that the least we ask of our kids when they do something wrong? Only God knows what is really going on in a person's heart and if repentance is really there when they ask for forgiveness, then he forgives... That is his nature. He won't change it.

And I don't think we would want him to. For all the REALLY REALLY REALLY bad stuff I have done, I want to keep getting forgiven else what hope is there for me? If I end it now it just speeds up the process of being chucked in hell (cos I wouldn't be forgiven...) and if I keep living I will inevitablly keep sinning and clocking up a MAJOR sin debt with God. So therefore I am happy that God even forgives paedophiles. It means that there is some hope for me!

But again, I think accepting my last comment comes down to an understanding of the definition of repentance that I just gave. God isn't going to forgive a Paedophile or someone who picks their nose UNLESS they are repentant. And he is the only one that knows that. Trying to second guees that is just judging, which really isn't our place, hey?

How do we reconcile our feelings about that? It is called living with other people I spose. I wouldn't know what to say if the scenario was "Living with the person who killed your child" or the like, but I know that everyday people (Christian and non-christian alike) rub me up the wrong way and seem only sometimes to be repentant for it. But I use the same method on them that I use with my DH when he P*sses me off. I LOVE him. It is the same thing God does for us when we keep coming back to him with a new load of bad-deeds that need forgiving.

So take heart if anything! It all means that there is hope for us yet!

[amielou]

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i don't think i could really answer any better than that....

Genuine repentant people are forgiven by God's grace... but we cannot tell who is genuinely repentant and who is not, but UTD is right, one would think (although we could always be mistaken lol) that if someone were genuinely repentant that they would also make an effort to apologize to the person / persons they wronged IYKWIM??

Ultimately God will judge and make everyone accountable for all they have done (including me) and that is something i think that comforts me amidst the world we love in today, that all of those people who hurt innocent children and who do things i can't even begin to understand... they will be judged and made to be accountable when the time comes, as will i for all i have done in my life... i can't imagine a better judge than the fatherly creator of each of those precious people who have been wronged to deal out the judging.

I for one am so thankful Almighty God is a forgiving one... i may not have killed anyone, or raped anyone, or robbed a bank or anything, but i have sinned, and i fall short of His Glory and His standards (we ALL do! as imperfect human beings!) i am blessed with an undeserved favour of gracious forgiveness for which i am eternally greatful otherwise i would never be able to have the relationship that i do with My Lord and Saviour, the problem of sin has to be dealt with before the perfect and wonderful creator God can be in relationship with me, or with anyone else, that's why Jesus paid the ultimate price, baring all MY sin and all MY shame, in love He came and gave amazing grace!! Alleluia!!

[LovetheChaos]

this thread has been fantastic, i find it so interesting to read everyones views and i am getting a better understanding of some things..DH and I often have debates about these sorts of things it's great!

He did ask me the other night what i would do i the following situation...

My brother was murdered 14 years ago, the person who did it got off as he was affiliated with some very 'influential' people. I went to the court case, came face to face with his killer, listened as the made things up about my brother. I also saw this person on a number of occassions around my home town, even to the point I was out with friends and he actually came up to me and said hello!!! HE KNEW WHO I WAS..... any way..

DH asked me if this person became a christian and seeked me out and asked my forgiveness, could i forgive him. I said no straight away, i got upset (this was obviously not dh's intent). I thought about it since then and my opinion has not changed.. in my opinion he is a murderer, he took my best friend from me and I could never forgive him.

I know this is an extreme case but am i wrong, does this make me un christian because i can't forgive????

sorry for the long winded post, I'm just interested in other perspectives...